990 Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

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Re: Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by kevxtx » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:35 am

I have had no problems with mine on cylinder 1, I constantly monitor my A/F ratio with my WideBand commander & it is pretty constant.

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Re: Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by TheFullMonty » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:17 pm

Kev

Just looking for some clues for my session in the garage tomorrow. Its 1degree C out there now, so a glass of wine and the TV is more interesting than the garage right now :D

When you created your custom map, you said you used the Akra map as a start point. Was there much change needed around 3000rpm 10/15/20% TP?

Do you think that the F/L switch could be confusing the Autotune. It is set at 16 at 2000rpm, then zero above this? All of the problems are in the 2750 to 3250 rev range and 10 to 20% TP. This seems suspiciously close to the only switch point in the rev range higher than tickover. Would it make sense to play with the 2000rpm F/L switch point if swapping the sensors does not flush out a problem?

Next idea..... The dynotune installation instructions state that the angle of the sensor is important. They say it should be within 10% of 9 or 3 o'clock. The sensor socket on cylinder 2 meets this requirement, but cylinder 1 does not. I cannot see why this would be relevant, but just wanted to see if you have an opinion.
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Re: Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by kevxtx » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:25 pm

TheFullMonty wrote:Kev

Just looking for some clues for my session in the garage tomorrow. Its 1degree C out there now, so a glass of wine and the TV is more interesting than the garage right now :D

When you created your custom map, you said you used the Akra map as a start point. Was there much change needed around 3000rpm 10/15/20% TP?

Do you think that the F/L switch could be confusing the Autotune. It is set at 16 at 2000rpm, then zero above this? All of the problems are in the 2750 to 3250 rev range and 10 to 20% TP. This seems suspiciously close to the only switch point in the rev range higher than tickover. Would it make sense to play with the 2000rpm F/L switch point if swapping the sensors does not flush out a problem?

Next idea..... The dynotune installation instructions state that the angle of the sensor is important. They say it should be within 10% of 9 or 3 o'clock. The sensor socket on cylinder 2 meets this requirement, but cylinder 1 does not. I cannot see why this would be relevant, but just wanted to see if you have an opinion.

Not sure if the F/L switch would effect the Auto Tune, might be worth loading the 2011 Akra map again or turning the F/L switch back to standard to see what happens. My F/L switch is standard.

I have built a map for the past 2 days with my Auto tune & will data log the A/f ratio tomorrow with my wideband using the same sensors to see what the difference is in A/F ratio.

As far as I know the angle of the sensor is to reduce condensation corrosion problems, so the sensor is not directly lying in contact with still water when the bike is left for periods.

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Re: Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by TheFullMonty » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:37 pm

Thanks Kev

Just looking through the PC documentation and realise I have not checked the TPS calibration. Will do this first.
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Re: Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by the brown streak » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:03 pm

hi lads, just a quick line ,currently using marks first posted map ,the pre auto tune,[as my bike running similar mods]
bike running fine ,better than just akro map, was going to load marks auto tune map listed but will wait till you have sorted it for now, many thanks for you work and posts, sorry cant offer any technical help [struggling to keep up as is] but thought a bit of moral support might help cheers dave.
remember, god loves you..... everybody else thinks your a cxnt!

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Re: Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by TheFullMonty » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:51 pm

kevxtx wrote:
TheFullMonty wrote:Kev

Just looking for some clues for my session in the garage tomorrow. Its 1degree C out there now, so a glass of wine and the TV is more interesting than the garage right now :D

When you created your custom map, you said you used the Akra map as a start point. Was there much change needed around 3000rpm 10/15/20% TP?

Do you think that the F/L switch could be confusing the Autotune. It is set at 16 at 2000rpm, then zero above this? All of the problems are in the 2750 to 3250 rev range and 10 to 20% TP. This seems suspiciously close to the only switch point in the rev range higher than tickover. Would it make sense to play with the 2000rpm F/L switch point if swapping the sensors does not flush out a problem?

Next idea..... The dynotune installation instructions state that the angle of the sensor is important. They say it should be within 10% of 9 or 3 o'clock. The sensor socket on cylinder 2 meets this requirement, but cylinder 1 does not. I cannot see why this would be relevant, but just wanted to see if you have an opinion.

Not sure if the F/L switch would effect the Auto Tune, might be worth loading the 2011 Akra map again or turning the F/L switch back to standard to see what happens. My F/L switch is standard.

I have built a map for the past 2 days with my Auto tune & will data log the A/f ratio tomorrow with my wideband using the same sensors to see what the difference is in A/F ratio.

As far as I know the angle of the sensor is to reduce condensation corrosion problems, so the sensor is not directly lying in contact with still water when the bike is left for periods.
Kev

Just wanted to clarify something you suggested earlier to me and others in regard to the F/L switch points. Are you saying that the changes to zero, are for everything above 2000rpm, or including the 2000rpm switch point? I have had the 2000rpm switch point set to 16 all along. I am considering trying this at zero as the first fix and then trying with all F/L points at standard.

I swapped the sensors over and reset the TPS and still have the same problem with Cylinder 1, so the F/L transition is where I want to look next.
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Re: Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by kevxtx » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:12 pm

I was meaning 2000rpm stays standard & everything above set the F/L points to zero. We did this so when I imported your PCV map it changed all the trims in the Tune ECU map. Put all your trims back to standard & retest.

I have just been going through all the data logging logs from yesterdays ride & found the A/F ratio for cylinder 1 @ 4000rpm set to 13.5:1 in Auto Tune data logged an A/F ratio of between 13.6 to 14:1. The data logging was done at stead throttle on the cruise. I am using the same O2 senor for both the Wideband & Auto Tune. I have adjusted the A/F ratio by hand to fine tune it & sent the map, I will go for a ride shortly running the Auto Tune then swap O2 plugs over & data log the A/F ratio on the exact same bit of road.

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Re: Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by kevxtx » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:46 am

This morning I found I needed to build the Auto Tune map on the same stretch road with an incline across the same RPM/TPS, otherwise the A/F ratio can be all over the place if you are riding up, down, open & close throttle openings.

I found I could dial the AT map in better if I halved the trim amounts in both trim tables before saving them & then carried out a re-runs on the same stretch of road then halved the trim tables again & saved the map again, I did this until it stopped trimming the Zone. I also found the AT does not like a lot of compression brakings while logging this also upset the AT tables. I found the AT likes slower roll ons in each TPS zone so it has time to build up on the revs, I found a nice long hill to do all my runs on & worked on one Zone at a time. I was holding the throttle constant in each zone apply the rear brake in the higher zones then letting the rear brake go & would let the revs build while riding up the hill.

I worked on each TPS zone with the AT set to 13.2:1 in that Zone only, all the other zones were set zero, so I could consentrate on the zone I was tuning.

I did the 2% throttle zone X4 runs
5% X 4 runs
10% X 4 runs
20% X 3 runs
Until I reached the 100 & 80% zone were i only did 2 each because of the speed for the road zones.

The map has come on nicely.

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Re: Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by TheFullMonty » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:58 am

kevxtx wrote:This morning I found I needed to build the Auto Tune map on the same stretch road with an incline across the same RPM/TPS, otherwise the A/F ratio can be all over the place if you are riding up, down, open & close throttle openings.

I found I could dial the AT map in better if I halved the trim amounts in both trim tables before saving them & then carried out a re-runs on the same stretch of road then halved the trim tables again & saved the map again, I did this until it stopped trimming the Zone. I also found the AT does not like a lot of compression brakings while logging this also upset the AT tables. I found the AT likes slower roll ons in each TPS zone so it has time to build up on the revs, I found a nice long hill to do all my runs on & worked on one Zone at a time. I was holding the throttle constant in each zone apply the rear brake in the higher zones then letting the rear brake go & would let the revs build while riding up the hill.

I worked on each TPS zone with the AT set to 13.2:1 in that Zone only, all the other zones were set zero, so I could consentrate on the zone I was tuning.

I did the 2% throttle zone X4 runs
5% X 4 runs
10% X 4 runs
20% X 3 runs
Until I reached the 100 & 80% zone were i only did 2 each because of the speed for the road zones.

The map has come on nicely.
Thanks for sharing this Kev. This makes sense. I will do the same tomorrow. Just leaving the AT running and riding as nomal, sends the map all over the place. Your way of tuning the bike is much more like the way you would tune the AFR on a dyno. Did you leave the F/L switch points on the standard setting?

Can you e-mail me the map. I am curious to see how it looks compared to the map my bike created this morning.
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Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by CADScott » Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:48 am

So it seems you shouldn't leave the autotune on all the time, but just switch it on to build a map when your setup changes, or your riding conditions are considerably different?
This is a bit different to what Dynojet seem to imply with their marketing, I got the impression that you could leave it running full time, and it would be constantly tweaking closer and closer to a perfect map.
If every time you go for a run with it you get wild swings in the trims, doesn't seem like it is much use for day to day riding.

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Re: Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by TheFullMonty » Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:50 am

CADScott wrote:So it seems you shouldn't leave the autotune on all the time, but just switch it on to build a map when your setup changes, or your riding conditions are considerably different?
This is a bit different to what Dynojet seem to imply with their marketing, I got the impression that you could leave it running full time, and it would be constantly tweaking closer and closer to a perfect map.
If every time you go for a run with it you get wild swings in the trims, doesn't seem like it is much use for day to day riding.
Autotune worked perfectly on my Kwaka GTR1400 and I ran it all the time, but on the SMT, it does not seem to work in the same way. I will be doing what Kev has done today, then switching it off.
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Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by CADScott » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:23 am

TheFullMonty wrote:
CADScott wrote:So it seems you shouldn't leave the autotune on all the time, but just switch it on to build a map when your setup changes, or your riding conditions are considerably different?
This is a bit different to what Dynojet seem to imply with their marketing, I got the impression that you could leave it running full time, and it would be constantly tweaking closer and closer to a perfect map.
If every time you go for a run with it you get wild swings in the trims, doesn't seem like it is much use for day to day riding.
Autotune worked perfectly on my Kwaka GTR1400 and I ran it all the time, but on the SMT, it does not seem to work in the same way. I will be doing what Kev has done today, then switching it off.
I assume you were using a single channel autotune on the GTR, I wonder if it something to do with the dual channel setup, and the autotune unit having to work twice as much?

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Re: Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by Bootworks » Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:02 pm

kevxtx wrote:I have received my AT-300 tonight & will fit it soon.
kevxtx, looking at the Dynojet website for our application they recommend the AT-200. May I ask why you selected the AT-300 instead? (Sorry if this has been covered, long thread.)

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Re: Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by kevxtx » Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:24 pm

My F/L switch points are standard.

Not saying my way is the correct way it is just what I have experanced using the Auto Tune on this 990, I did find just riding the bike & trying to build a AT map the map was doing some funny things & kept leaning out areas in the low throttle/rpm's that are not right according to my custom Dyno map & my Widband data logger. Lucky I have a tool to check my mapping while riding to compare.

The A/F ratios do not stay the same under all riding conditions, if riding up a hill the motor is under load & runs a richer mixtue compared to the same throttle opening & rev range if you were to ride on a flat road it is about 0.5:1 difference that I can measure. This is why I decided to build my AT map on one road under the same conditions & the AT map seems to be working out OK.

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Re: Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by TheFullMonty » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:46 am

My Autotune is now working correctly and has built a great map that gives maximum power and smoothness.

Kev and I found the same issue. The Autotune does not like quick throttle changes between 2500 and 3500 RPM. Outside of these ranges it seems to work fine. I have done a lot of work to resolve this over the last week and I am going to risk telling you my "best guess" theory on the reason for this is around cam timing. KTM has built cams to deliver a strong mid range and max power at high revs. The problem with performance cams is that there is a transition, just before "coming on the cam". They could have made cams that gave better low end power, but this comes at the cost of high end performance. It is very hard to get the fuelling right at the cam transition point, because the fuelling needed below the transition and above it are vastly different. There are timing issues between exhaust and inlet timing that don't work well until a ceratin rev range is reached. The Dynojet fuelling tables increase in 250rpm increments and around the cam transition, the fuelleing changes are too big for the Autotune to cope with quickly. They are also inconsistent. A gentle touch is needed.

So, here is what I did to create the map (following Kev's clues):
1. I rode the bike steadily with no quick throttle movements with AFR tables sen to 13.2 in only the 2% column. Accepted the trims. Cleared the AFR tables.
2. Then I did the same for the 5% column, then 10%, 15% and then 20%.
3. I then did 40,60,80 and 100% columns together as the Autotune did not seem to have any issue in these areas. Accepted the trims.
4. Zeroed all of the AFR table and then put back 13.2 into 10,15,20% columns together and took the bike for a ride focussing in these areas. I rode as gently and smoothly as if my granny was on the back. Accepted the trims.
5. Removed all of the AFR settings and put back 13.2 into the 40% and above columns. Then rode the bike like I had stolen it for an hour. Accepted the trims.

The result is a very smooth and powerful bike. I have left the AFR tables populated in the 40% and above TP ranges and reduced the Autotune maximum trim to 10%.

For the non-techies....... If you have the same set up as me, you can use my PCV map (Marks stage 1 map) in your Power Commander, but you MUST be using Kevs Custom Map in your ECU. (I got better results using this as the base map). If you don't have a Power Commander, then you can download the ECU version of my map and upload it to your bike with Tune-link.

My set-up is:
Wings cans with baffles in
Secondaries removed
BMC filter in standard air box
SAS system removed
Standard stacks

Now I am back into the garage to fit the RC8 stacks and remove the baffles, then make a map for this set up (Stage 2)
Current Bikes - 2011 KTM SMT, 2012 Honda Crosstourer, 1974 Kawasaki H1
Past Bikes = 24
Correct number of bikes = N+1 (N= the number you already have)

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Re: Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by CADScott » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:00 am

TheFullMonty wrote:My Autotune is now working correctly and has built a great map that gives maximum power and smoothness.

Kev and I found the same issue. The Autotune does not like quick throttle changes between 2500 and 3500 RPM. Outside of these ranges it seems to work fine. I have done a lot of work to resolve this over the last week and I am going to risk telling you my "best guess" theory on the reason for this is around cam timing. KTM has built cams to deliver a strong mid range and max power at high revs. The problem with performance cams is that there is a transition, just before "coming on the cam". They could have made cams that gave better low end power, but this comes at the cost of high end performance. It is very hard to get the fuelling right at the cam transition point, because the fuelling needed below the transition and above it are vastly different. There are timing issues between exhaust and inlet timing that don't work well until a ceratin rev range is reached. The Dynojet fuelling tables increase in 250rpm increments and around the cam transition, the fuelleing changes are too big for the Autotune to cope with quickly. They are also inconsistent. A gentle touch is needed.

So, here is what I did to create the map (following Kev's clues):
1. I rode the bike steadily with no quick throttle movements with AFR tables sen to 13.2 in only the 2% column. Accepted the trims. Cleared the AFR tables.
2. Then I did the same for the 5% column, then 10%, 15% and then 20%.
3. I then did 40,60,80 and 100% columns together as the Autotune did not seem to have any issue in these areas. Accepted the trims.
4. Zeroed all of the AFR table and then put back 13.2 into 10,15,20% columns together and took the bike for a ride focussing in these areas. I rode as gently and smoothly as if my granny was on the back. Accepted the trims.
5. Removed all of the AFR settings and put back 13.2 into the 40% and above columns. Then rode the bike like I had stolen it for an hour. Accepted the trims.

The result is a very smooth and powerful bike. I have left the AFR tables populated in the 40% and above TP ranges and reduced the Autotune maximum trim to 10%.

For the non-techies....... If you have the same set up as me, you can use my PCV map (Marks stage 1 map) in your Power Commander, but you MUST be using Kevs Custom Map in your ECU. (I got better results using this as the base map). If you don't have a Power Commander, then you can download the ECU version of my map and upload it to your bike with Tune-link.

My set-up is:
Wings cans with baffles in
Secondaries removed
BMC filter in standard air box
SAS system removed
Standard stacks

Now I am back into the garage to fit the RC8 stacks and remove the baffles, then make a map for this set up (Stage 2)
Fantastic work between Kev and yourself! So are you leaving the autotune running all the time now, but setting the max trim to 10%?

Does it still give wild trim values (Up to your max of 10% of course) outside the 2500 to 3500 rpm, or is it settling down to smaller trims?

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Re: Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by Bootworks » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:17 am

Watching, digesting, trying to learn. Thanking the Deities there are smarter riders who are figuring it out; Would hate to be the first one blazing up that trail!

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Re: Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by TheFullMonty » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:25 am

I have set the AFR tables to zero in the 0 to 20% columns and 13.2 in the 40 to 100% columns and then left the AT running at 10% maximum trim setting. The trims have settled down and I think it is fine to run like this. It always seemed OK in the 40% TP column and above. All of the issues are in the 5 to 20%, 2500 to 3500 area and then only when you are aggressive with the throttle. If you copy the way I have tuned my bike, all will be well.
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Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by CADScott » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:24 am

Thanks Monty, I have a autotune setup, LCD screen and PCV ready to install, but was sent the wrong PCV for my bike. Waiting on a new one before I can setup, good to know other have got it to work ok!

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Re: Power Commander 5 & Tune ECU custom maps

Post by TheFullMonty » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:11 am

TheFullMonty wrote:My Autotune is now working correctly and has built a great map that gives maximum power and smoothness.

Kev and I found the same issue. The Autotune does not like quick throttle changes between 2500 and 3500 RPM. Outside of these ranges it seems to work fine. I have done a lot of work to resolve this over the last week and I am going to risk telling you my "best guess" theory on the reason for this is around cam timing. KTM has built cams to deliver a strong mid range and max power at high revs. The problem with performance cams is that there is a transition, just before "coming on the cam". They could have made cams that gave better low end power, but this comes at the cost of high end performance. It is very hard to get the fuelling right at the cam transition point, because the fuelling needed below the transition and above it are vastly different. There are timing issues between exhaust and inlet timing that don't work well until a ceratin rev range is reached. The Dynojet fuelling tables increase in 250rpm increments and around the cam transition, the fuelleing changes are too big for the Autotune to cope with quickly. They are also inconsistent. A gentle touch is needed.

So, here is what I did to create the map (following Kev's clues):
1. I rode the bike steadily with no quick throttle movements with AFR tables sen to 13.2 in only the 2% column. Accepted the trims. Cleared the AFR tables.
2. Then I did the same for the 5% column, then 10%, 15% and then 20%.
3. I then did 40,60,80 and 100% columns together as the Autotune did not seem to have any issue in these areas. Accepted the trims.
4. Zeroed all of the AFR table and then put back 13.2 into 10,15,20% columns together and took the bike for a ride focussing in these areas. I rode as gently and smoothly as if my granny was on the back. Accepted the trims.
5. Removed all of the AFR settings and put back 13.2 into the 40% and above columns. Then rode the bike like I had stolen it for an hour. Accepted the trims.

The result is a very smooth and powerful bike. I have left the AFR tables populated in the 40% and above TP ranges and reduced the Autotune maximum trim to 10%.

For the non-techies....... If you have the same set up as me, you can use my PCV map (Marks stage 1 map) in your Power Commander, but you MUST be using Kevs Custom Map in your ECU. (I got better results using this as the base map). If you don't have a Power Commander, then you can download the ECU version of my map and upload it to your bike with Tune-link.

My set-up is:
Wings cans with baffles in
Secondaries removed
BMC filter in standard air box
SAS system removed
Standard stacks

Now I am back into the garage to fit the RC8 stacks and remove the baffles, then make a map for this set up (Stage 2)

Gents - just finished the Stage 2 PCV map. Same as above, but with RC8 stacks and baffles removed.

I have to say that the stacks make a huge difference. At $12 for the pair. They are great value. Smoother, more torque at the bottom end. Stronger mid range and at the top end, I kept running out of road :lol: This is definately the way to go.

I have sent this map to Kev for adding to the map library as a PCV map and also a converted map that can be loaded straight into the ECU if you don't have a Power Commander. It is called Marks stage 2 map. I hope it is useful to some of you.

BTW - both of my maps were made on 98RON fuel at 600m (1800ft) above sea level at an Air Fuel Ratio of 13.2 everywhere in the map. This AFR gives maximum power :twisted:
Current Bikes - 2011 KTM SMT, 2012 Honda Crosstourer, 1974 Kawasaki H1
Past Bikes = 24
Correct number of bikes = N+1 (N= the number you already have)

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